How To Use AI When Therapy Isn't Enough

Jason Haworth (00:00)
It's it's there to help you find your way That's the point like the therapists aren't there going take this path find this direction No, you're supposed to find your way in talk therapy and the AI

will help you. Like your therapist can be your sherpa, ⁓ but they're not really great at that. But they're really great at it as being a sounding board. And you basically need your own sherpa structure in place. And quite often, Chad GPT can be that.

Jeremy Grater (00:27)
Hey, welcome to robots. My name is Jeremy. His name is Jason. We talk about technology, AI, health and wellness, how they all intersect and how sometimes it's best just unplug from all of it and go the fuck outside like I did today. And it was awesome. ⁓

Jason Haworth (00:33)
Yep. Woot.

Jeremy Grater (00:39)
Today we want to talk about something. And you might have to follow me down a rabbit hole a little bit here because my brain works in weird ways sometimes. And the path I've been on trying to find myself ⁓ started in a weird place and is ending in kind of a cool place. So ⁓

Bear with us. I don't know where this is going, but we're about to find out. Jason, I'm going to start this by talking about the fact that as we're recording this, I was just listening to the last episode of WTF, Mark Maron, my favorite podcaster for many, many years, like a hero of mine. I've met him, met him a couple of times, really cool guy. His show ended and it has been a heartbreaker. I've been grieving a lot more than I thought I would, but

Jason Haworth (01:09)
Yep.

Jeremy Grater (01:21)
The process of him leaving has sort of kicked open a door for me of trying to find myself because in all the years that I've been listening to his show, I've really related to a lot of the content that he shares, a lot of his worldviews. And with him leaving, there's been this ⁓ sort of like vacuum, this absence that's starting to open up. like, what am I going to do without this voice in my head in the gym every day? Who am I going to turn to for that sense of comfort and belonging? ⁓

And along my way, I've been sort of asking myself those questions and in turn asking them to AI to help me sort through the fogginess and spiderweb of thoughts that I've had. And I've landed in some really interesting places and started to find something I've been searching for for nearly 50 years. And it is, what the hell is fun? Like, what do I actually like to do when I have an open time on my window? I usually panic. like, what do I, what the fuck? I don't know what to do with it. There's a thousand things I could do.

Jason Haworth (02:00)
⁓

Jeremy Grater (02:17)
I get paralyzed, I do none of them, and then I feel like shit for the rest of the day because I didn't do any of them.

Jason Haworth (02:20)
No, no, no, no, no, no, pick up your phone and you start looking at shit, that's what you do. That's what you do

Jeremy Grater (02:25)
Yes, that's the other thing. That's what you do. Yes,

and like picking up the computer. There must be something on here that can fill the time, pass it by or whatever. So yeah, it's been super interesting and I'll stop talking there because I've been talking a lot already. So your immediate response, I guess. Okay.

Jason Haworth (02:41)
So yeah, I want to reframe this question.

It's not what is fun. It's what do I do when I'm not occupied? Because fun is subjective. Like you can go, I'm going to do this thing because I think it's going to be fun or it's going to occupy my time. Video games are a classic example of this, right? So like.

Jeremy Grater (02:51)
Yes, yes.

Jason Haworth (03:05)
They allow escapism, they let you drop into a different world, there's multiple different layers to them, they might have stories, you get various levels of depth and various levels of acuity and you can get better and better at these things as time progresses. You know, going through being able to build things or do first person shooters or whatever it is you're going to do, you know, a useless fucking skill that you're never going to use again unless you have, you know, teenage kids and you want to beat the shit out of them at Mortal Kombat to show them who's still boss. ⁓

I'm not saying I've done that. I'm not saying I've done that today. I've definitely done that.

Jeremy Grater (03:35)
No, of course not.

I've never played a classic

Nintendo game just to destroy my children and show them that I'm still relevant in 1989.

Jason Haworth (03:45)
Yeah, I tried to dunk on them. ⁓ Right.

So I mean, there's there's a ton of truth to the notion that we as individuals are always looking for something in us that ⁓ occupies us in a way that keeps us engaged for a protracted period of time. So we evolved as as creatures to go out and hunt and do certain activities and then come back and do other stuff to make sure that the tribe survives.

And there's certain things that we have to do to make sure that we keep living. You know, we got to eat enough, we got to drink enough. Sorry, we have to eat enough food, we have to drink enough water, we have to get enough sleep and we have to protect ourselves with clothing or caves or something else from the elements. Once those things are kind of done, after that, the other, the pursuit of the other becomes the thing that you can do. And as we went from these hunter gatherer societies into agrarian cultures, we suddenly found that we had free time.

And as we had free time, we had to occupy that space with other things. And that's how you get things like reading and how you get mathematics and people actually pursuing things that are interests beyond, you know, basic survival mechanisms. And then you created a commerce system where people could go through and specialize in skills and get really, really good at things. And then they could go through and they could do that really, really thing they're really, really good at and specialize that for a certain period of time and get money or goods or services or something else.

And then they would have to find something to do. So a lot of people, they switched over to things like, I'm gonna make booze that makes me drunk because being high is something, it's a good distraction for the things that I want to do. And then you have other people are like, well, I'm gonna distract myself with doing these things. Like I'm gonna learn how to fish or I'm gonna learn how to tie knots or I'm gonna learn how to do blah, blah, blah, blah. Now we have the internets and the compendium of human knowledge in front of us. And are we using it?

to become better knot tires and better rope makers and using it for plumbing and using it for fixing our cars. mean, sure, people are doing these things in small little tidbits because they're watching videos.

Jeremy Grater (05:50)
I have that in my notes. That's

a topic for another time, the day I fix my car with AI. We'll have to talk about that.

Jason Haworth (05:54)
Right. So, mean, we use

these things to go through these tools to go through and figure out how to make practical things in our lives. Not a problem, but eventually, you you run out of time or interest or something else. And at some point there becomes an information overload where you can't take anything. And we have subsumed, we have given over our, our desire to want to know a lot of things and, uh,

supplanted it with the desire to be distracted by things and and follow me on this path really really quickly if I Back in the 90s when I had to look up a research project I could not I mean the internet was there but it was pretty much fucking useless and Inaccessible and it was over 2400 key. I'll actually really a 1200 key bod or 1200 bod modem Crazy fucking slow. So like dial-up like peaky

Jeremy Grater (06:47)
Nobody knows what you're talking about. doesn't matter.

Jason Haworth (06:53)
like all that. Imagine the grandfather of that, which was

Jeremy Grater (06:54)
Yeah. Right.

Jason Haworth (06:57)
like, be slow. Like it was terrible, but.

So, back in the day, if you had a research project to do, you would have to go to the library and look shit up. You'd have to open up encyclopedias, or you'd have to open up multiple different tomes of textbooks. And those textbooks had circuit dates. This was written then. And you may or may not have the most accurate up-to-date information. Your information may have been totally changed and altered by some other form.

But you had this basis of this thing that you could say, I have a truth. Here's my cited resource. Thump. And people would go back and look at that set of resources and look those pieces up. Now you just have the Internet and it's a ton of information. Some of it useful, some of it not useful. No real circumstance on these pieces, no real sets of information out there that are really pinned up for a way for you to collect knowledge and information. And at some point, people are like. I'm OK with that. I'm OK with my information being entertainment.

Or maybe more specifically, I'm okay with my entertainment being information. Not valid, not good, just something that distracts my brain and keeps the fuzzy monsters ⁓ out because I don't want to deal. And we don't want to deal because there too many fucking signals.

Jeremy Grater (08:09)
Yeah. Well, and now fast forward,

with the promise of AI and all of us never having to work again, what the hell are we going to do with all that free time? Right now, we've got eight hours covered, another eight sleeping. So eight hours working, eight hours sleeping. And then there's this whole gray area of like, what the fuck do I do there? And we're all filling it up with scrolling because it's easy.

Jason Haworth (08:31)
Yeah, because porn

can only occupy so much time in a day. And as you get older, it becomes less and less exciting. So I've heard. So it's been said. I mean, think statistically, you could probably ask AI, and you could probably find out what those curvature timelines are. But the real question isn't so much, you know,

Jeremy Grater (08:35)
That's right.

So I've heard, so I've heard. Yeah.

Sure,

Jason Haworth (08:55)
Maybe it is. Maybe the question is what actually does bring me joy and what actually does bring me happiness? And if you start talking about Marie Kondo in your internet life and your internet persona, that becomes a very interesting question and very interesting exercise.

Jeremy Grater (09:07)
Right. And so I went down the path of this because there have been no shortage of forms or groups I've joined or things where it's like, what do you do for fun? What are your hobbies? And podcasting only fills up so much of the page. Right. Like I've got to do something else with my time. What is it? And there's lots of things that I do that in the moment they're enjoyable, but I don't look at them and go, man, if I had free time, that's all I would do. That would be amazing. So I had this moment in my absence of listening to Mark Maron because I was all caught up.

Jason Haworth (09:13)
Yeah. .

Jeremy Grater (09:36)
And I was like, God, you know, I haven't listened to an audio book in a long time. Let's fire up one of these audio book things. And it's one of your typical, you know, live your best life audio books. There's there's nothing massively groundbreaking in it. like it's like the thousands of other self-help books I've read in my life. But there was something about being in the gym at the moment when I was being inquisitive about this, this part of my life. And the book instructed me to make a list of all of the problems that I have in my life. Just just make a list. No judgment, no nothing. Just make the list.

So I'm sitting there in between sets and I'm just vomiting out, you know, a list of things that I had a problem with from, you know, relationship issues, money issues, you know, whatever, like just giant brain dump. But then I took it a step further. The book did not instruct me to do this, but I went, God, what if I dumped this into chat GPT? And I said, write me a letter from my perspective, helping me deal with and start to come up with an action plan to resolve these problems. The letter, I swear to God.

Broke me emotionally like I was sitting there crying reading the like it was like dude you're not broken shit is hard you got a lot on your plate you're not literally there was a line I believe it was you're not broken you're buried and you're digging and I was like yeah yeah that's it like totally connected and so but then it went a step further right that was that was sort of the therapy answer

Jason Haworth (10:36)
you

Jeremy Grater (10:56)
But what I love about doing this sort of an exercise with AI is that also goes the step further and it came up with the action plan. Here are the steps to start taking and I was like, okay, let's break them down one by one. ⁓ Write it in a format that I can copy and paste into my task manager thing that I can start to populate a calendar with and start to take action on. And so part of that exercise led me to, you know, it was like.

carve out time every day for something fun. I was like, well, fuck, if I knew that I probably wouldn't be in this situation because I don't know how to have fun. What the fuck does that even feel like? And there was something in processing that question where I just like connected with there was this moment of of ease. And I think I was just with my kids or something in there at the park and they're playing. was like, God, this reminds me of that time in Paris when like we're just laying in the park and it was very leisurely. This reminds me of when we went to Disneyland the first time and I just

We just had no agenda. We just followed the kids wherever they went. And I started these lights, these these words started to light up in my head. Flow, ease, peace, calm presence. And so I started dumping that into the tool and I was like, this is this is what I want more of in my life. Like that to me, that is as close to fun as I'm ever going to feel is like just sense of like just this ease. And it was like that it was, you know, of course, it's like, that's amazing, champ. But it was

Jason Haworth (11:55)
You You

Jeremy Grater (12:19)
It was interesting because it was like,

you're not the kind of person who's looking for the skydiving, the parasailing, the rock climbing. You want this calm. You want these these peaceful moments to just sort of enjoy life. And I was like, aha. And it was like, PS, there's nothing wrong with that. Like if that's fun for you, that's awesome. Do more of that. And I felt this like forgiveness or this this allowance to accept that that is

Jason Haworth (12:46)
Permission.

Jeremy Grater (12:48)
Yeah, permission. That's the word. Thank you. This permission to seek more of that and that that could be enough. And all of a sudden I started this this wash over my body of like ⁓ just comfort in my own skin, feeling like, OK, that's that's who I am. And that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with my lack of desire to throw myself out of a fucking airplane. It's OK that I just want more calm and peace and quiet in my life. And that's OK.

Jason Haworth (12:51)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Grater (13:17)
This all again, I keep I'm going to keep circling back to Marin because this is where I met in my life. I went and saw the documentary about his his life and his loss of his partner a few years ago and then watching him on screen as tortured as he is and as much as I relate to that torture, there's also this comfort in his own skin of like that's who he is and that's how he's lived his life and he has a level of acceptance to it. And so I'm just like there's part of me that the soundtrack in my head that used to be God, you fucking idiot. God, you're the dumbest piece of shit. How could you do such a stupid thing?

Jason Haworth (13:35)
Yeah.

Jeremy Grater (13:46)
I erased all of that a few years ago and there's just been this vacuum since then of like, is the, what is the, what is the dialogue? What is the conversation I'm having with myself? And all of a sudden I'm starting to hear things like, it's okay that you feel like this. It's okay that this is what you want to do. It's okay that you don't give a shit about the problem that that person's having and you don't want to have to solve it for them again. Like there's all these things that all of a sudden I'm hearing this new soundtrack that's like, you don't have to fucking be anything other than what you are right now.

That's fine. And it's weird because it's landing. And so with that, I was again having the conversation with AI. What should I do? What other things can bring this kind of feeling? And it was like, you know, it got me thinking and I'm like, I used to like riding my bike. And so like today, I'm off work. I just decided to take a day off because it's the day after Thanksgiving. I just wanted to extend the weekend. And Canadian Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's right. Because we do it right. We do it in October, the way you're supposed to. ⁓

Jason Haworth (14:28)
Canadian Thanksgiving. Canadian Thanksgiving.

Jeremy Grater (14:46)
I was like, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna take the kids to school. I'm gonna go ride my bike on a trail. I'm just gonna go do it. Cause, cause why not? Like I would have been panicking two weeks ago if I was trying to figure out what to do tomorrow. But because I had just gone through this exercise, it was like, I'm gonna go do that. You know why? Cause I like it. Doesn't have to be the biggest thrill of my life, but it's something I enjoy. Let's go give it a shot. I had a great time. I rode on this trail for two hours. I stopped at a cafe and sat along the river drinking my coffee, talked to my friend on the phone for an hour. I was like,

I can just do this. I don't have to constantly be searching for whose problem can I solve? Who can I make happy? Who can I convince that I'm not a complete sack of shit? Like I can just do these things that I want to do and that's fine. And I know to some of you, you're like, duh, what's the fucking epiphany? 48 years I have not felt this way. No, I'm sorry, we're done. We're out of time.

Jason Haworth (15:37)
So can I ask a question? Oh, all right. Thank you guys. That was a fun show.

When is your ebook coming out that says, here's the one prompt that you can do to save your life and then charge people 9.99?

Jeremy Grater (15:57)
Right, that's the method, right? That's how you do it. I can solve all of your problems. That's right, that's right. According to every sub stack post I see, with this simple prompt, I can save your life.

Jason Haworth (15:59)
I understand this is how we become internet rich. so we, we, Yes. Yes. No, I mean, it's

okay. So one, um, good on you for asking yourself that question. Um, two good on you for, you know, having the guts to throw it into an LLM. I trust that you, you

Do check the temporary chat button so it doesn't store this shit forever.

Jeremy Grater (16:29)
I did the paid version so it's

not training anything based on what I said supposedly. Yeah.

Jason Haworth (16:32)
Okay, okay,

okay. Well, look.

I'm 50. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And I'm okay with that. Like, I don't know what age I figured that part out at. And don't get me wrong, like I'm a horrible fucking emotional mess in all kinds of ways. I have my shit together some days in some ways really, really well. I have I don't have my shit together at all in some other ways. There's days where I've got nothing together. There's days where I feel like I've got everything together.

And the reality is that I'm normally somewhere on some kind of spectrum in that kind of place. Asking yourself the question, ⁓ what actually brings me joy? If chat can answer that for you, I would be surprised. If chat can give you the framework, ⁓

for how to answer that for yourself. Oh yeah, that makes sense. Because again, it's about a process, running through those pieces and asking yourself what's going on inside of you. Now, if it knows you well enough that it can answer those questions for you, then you've been uploaded in your other matrix and reliving in a hologram, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Fucking great. Let's take this off of advanced mode and set this back to novice so I can do more exciting things. I need some more cheat codes, but I don't think that's the case.

I think we're living in a society in a time right now that's being ⁓ optimized to try and force us into particular buckets where we've got a level of productivity that benefits the system that's run by a few billionaires. And if you're not one of them, ⁓ you are collateral and fodder for the system, which means you have to take care of yourself because this system is not designed to feed and clothe you.

It's not designed to meet your needs. It's not designed to make you feel better. You're going to have to figure this shit out on your own because it used to be that we lived with tribes or people with like out for each other. We don't live in that space anymore. Not at all. Like cops are considered to be adversarial in most parts of the world. Like they're not something that you're there to look for for trust. They're there. You're you're you're both a good and a bad, you know, you're afraid to be caught for some criminal behavior like speeding or. I don't know, petty theft. I.

fucking did you overfill your coffee cup? Did you fill up your soda twice without paying? I mean, the random shit that people get busted for is crazy. And we all have a guilt complex around it. And we run around going, am I a good person? Am I this? Am I that? We're very concerned with how others perceive us. And most of time, the thing that we should be the most concerned with is how we perceive us as individuals, how we perceive ourselves. There is a really good

experiment that came out a long time with virtual reality headsets where they were trying to help white people understand the experience of what it's like to be a black person in society where they'd go through and they, you you put on a VR headset, you'd look at yourself in the mirror and you'd watch your face transition from, you know, being a white guy to being a black guy in society. And then have you walk down the street wearing this virtual headset and watching all these people like give you slight glances or different looks.

Anyway, Andrew Huberman did this on his podcast he talked about a couple of months ago. And it's like, it completely changed my perspective. Like, I, this is, it's not exactly a firsthand experience, but it's enough of a simulation or replication that I can understand things from that perspective. And it changed his entire mindset. And that all comes down to the idea of having good neuroplasticity, the ability to rewire your brain and retrain who you think you are.

You are going through that exercise right now. You are using chat GPT to do just that thing because you're asking yourself confrontational questions that at some point were probably too scary or too difficult for you to ask and you didn't have the right tools to look for it, but you've done years of talk therapy and you've had years of work reading books and doing other pieces and now you're at the point where you can actually ask yourself these questions in a meaningful way and it's awesome and it's fantastic.

But now what do you need do with this? That's the next question. Yeah. you

Jeremy Grater (21:03)
Oh, and that's exactly it. So I was kind of going back through the conversation that I had with it. And it's like you said, like I didn't ask it, hey, what brings me joy? I told it, these are my problems. How do I start to deal with them? And step one was pick a single tangible thing you can control. And then, yeah, like 10 minute writing session, go through and figure out like how you can, how you can take care of that. A couple of the things I won't mention here, a couple of the things I won't mention here. But then when it got into

like, you know, where do you find peace? That's, that's where I started to like just.

It was just one of those things where I probably have asked myself that daily for my whole life. And this time the bulb lit up like, you know, I got a positive charge out of my brain when the question hit and it started to connect all these dots. So what do I do with it? Right. So today I did. I went out and rode my bike for the first time, you know, first thing in the morning for the first time in months by myself. Didn't need to coordinate with somebody. Didn't have to be a whole family adventure where everybody had all it was just like, I'm just going to do this for me. So now, like, what am going to do tomorrow?

probably not a bike ride, but I'm going to set some time aside tomorrow to figure out what can I do today that replicates that feeling. Maybe it's a walk along the river. Maybe it's the cold plunge that I wouldn't normally do on a Wednesday. I don't know, but I'm going to start looking for ways to integrate more of that into my life. You know, and you know, keep in mind it's a day off, right? I've had no responsibilities. I've had haven't had to do anything, so it's a good day like there's there's no stress. I haven't had to deal with any problems, but part of that is because.

Jason Haworth (22:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Grater (22:30)
I didn't get sucked into a scroll. I didn't get sucked into like what meaningless

Jason Haworth (22:32)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Grater (22:34)
tasks can I fill my day with on my computer to simulate the stress of a workday to feel normal, to feel like it's routine and then still sort of end up in the same place. So it's just it's helping me see my day as an opportunity to fill it more with that feeling. And that's I had an experience with my brother like a year ago. I went to visit him and we've both been through the mental health battles our whole lives.

I watched him in his current state in his life, literally waking up every day and going like, what can I do for fun today? And like, it's not like an intentional thing, but like they just go like, hey, hey, partner, I love you, you have family, we have some shared interests, which fun thing can we go do today? And they go do the fun thing. was like, God damn,

Jason Haworth (23:17)
Yep.

Jeremy Grater (23:18)
that seems really cool. How do you do that? Like, that's so weird. And I'm for the first time getting a taste of that now where it's like, I can just freely choose to try something.

Maybe tomorrow the feeling won't be there. Maybe it won't work. But I'm sure as hell gonna try because I now have this positive reinforcement that if I do, I might end up feeling like this. So why not give it a shot?

Jason Haworth (23:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the answer to how do you do it is you do it like

Jeremy Grater (23:46)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Haworth (23:48)
It's not rocket math. I mean, there's all kinds of ways you can talk about it. There's nothing to it but to do it. The only way out is through like there's there's a thousand embrace the sock, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, getting waking up and having your intention that day being I'm going to do something nice for myself is not a bad thing. And a lot of us worry that, you know, if I do something nice for myself, comes at the expense of what I'm going to do nice for other people. And

Jeremy Grater (23:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Haworth (24:16)
you as parents and partners, ⁓ you know, we start feeling guilty about that because there becomes this sense of, know, if I'm only taking care of myself and I'm not taking care of others. Well, we're living in a constant airplane crash right now. Like it's the plane is falling all the time. So you better put your own oxygen mask on first.

or else you're gonna pass out on this plane and not be able to help fucking anybody.

Jeremy Grater (24:48)
But

but one element of this that I want to make sure I mentioned is that that that guilt right that that part that comes up. I do a lot of shit for me. I go to the gym every day. I cold plunge multiple times a week. But those are not things that like I don't feel like yeah that was fun. had a good like I don't enjoy going to the gym like I enjoy that it helps clear the cobwebs and helps you know sort the mental chaos. It's the suck. I don't like sitting in cold water but I like that I feel better afterward.

Jason Haworth (24:53)
Yeah. It's the suck. Yeah.

Jeremy Grater (25:17)
So there's all

these things that I do for myself so that it's created this barrier to, you're also going to carve an hour out of your day to just have fun, just to go dick around. I haven't considered it because I do so much for myself, but it's kind of like saying, well, I take my medicine, so I shouldn't be allowed to also eat food.

I'm not allowing myself to explore fun because I'm doing all these other things just to just to like operate at a baseline that is functional in relatively polite society. Yeah, yeah. And so it's it's hard to be like, hey, I know I've done a lot for me today, but I need a little me time.

Jason Haworth (25:49)
Yeah, you're doing maintenance.

Yeah, mean like, brushing your teeth is good for all of us. You know, it's good for your teeth.

Jeremy Grater (26:01)
Hmm?

Jason Haworth (26:04)
It's good for your health. And it's good for the rest of us. We don't have to smell you with stinky trench mouth. You know, I mean that that's that's the reality of things is that like, we keep trying to assign valuation to the things that we do as you know, good or bad. And and you know, some some of those things you do are just maintenance. And we often get into this internal conflict of, know, am I being selfish by going and doing this thing? Yeah, maybe.

But who gives a shit? Selfishness is how the species survived. And you are somewhat biologically pre-programmed to do some of those things. Now does that mean be selfish at all costs and hurt everybody in the process? Well, no, absolutely not. But it's okay to go, I need an hour to myself to go do something that I actually enjoy. That's not maintenance, that's not the suck part. I I'm lucky enough that...

I like my workouts and I like going to the gym and yes it sucks but part of the fun part about it is the group misery that I'm there to participate in and the complaining and whining and you know I go to CrossFit and it's a fucking stitch and bitch circle like we get in there and we talk about all kinds of things I mean we try to avoid politics and religion in general but they come up and we talk about it and we've got you know opposing opinions and views but for the most part you know

Jeremy Grater (27:10)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Haworth (27:30)
throwing around heavy weights or breathing hard and you know, we give each other a fist bump at the end and go, good job. And then we go about our days and you know, most of us will stop and do something on the way home or we'll stop and pick something up and that little guilty pleasure, I'd be like, you know, I stopped and got a cup of coffee or I stopped at Costco and I bought myself splibbity blah, whatever. But when I leave there, I feel

tired. I don't leave there going, I feel so much better. Like I'm exhausted. I'm worn out. So my treat when I get home, when I'm really tired in those, in those kinds of situations are I might turn off my phone and I might turn off my computer and I might go lay down in bed for half an hour and turn on like a 30 minute sleep cycle thing that's got binaural beats on it to try to like recoup and recover in this kind of way. Is it being selfish to do that? I mean, maybe.

Jeremy Grater (28:01)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Haworth (28:30)
Is it am I not doing something for my employer during that 30 minutes? Well, I don't know. mean, I think them getting the best of me and getting me at my my best emotional physical mental peak. It's pretty beneficial because when I'm working at my best, you know, I'm highly productive when I'm working at my worst. I am not and I might make mistakes.

Jeremy Grater (28:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Haworth (28:54)
So I mean, it's all a balancing act and it's all trying to figure these pieces out and it's a never ending process. I mean, it does that at some point. But as long as you're alive and as long as you're processing oxygen and turning food to shit, you're gonna have to make these kinds of decisions and calls and they're not always gonna be right and people are gonna get hurt in the process. And at the end of the day, you need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and go, all right, I'm doing it. I'm getting by. I'm making these things work. I'm doing.

Jeremy Grater (29:05)
You

Jason Haworth (29:22)
doing what I can to not hurt other people along the way as I figure out what my life is gonna be and my journey in this space. And it's hard and it's complex and there's not an easy, there's not an easy answer for this. There's also not an easy fit, right? Like there's not a formula that's gonna work for everybody. So doing this exercise and asking the AI gods what a framework would look like for you is a wise idea and being able to go through and.

engineer those pieces and try to push those things through is a wise idea. And if you use it as a life coach and maybe consult some humans along the way as well to check yourself, I think there's real benefit to this.

Jeremy Grater (30:01)
That was the thing that was really cool. was talking to a friend of mine about this today as we wrap up here because my computer will literally die any second. But the thing that was so compelling is that I was we were talking about this because he's going through something similar. He's doing the same sort of prompting in his life and trying to get his shit together. ⁓ And it was just cool because we both felt like, you know, therapy is awesome. It's a great place to vent. It's a great place to be validated. It's a great place to have someone say, yeah, lots of other people, too.

Here are some simple things, know, like sort of the typical responses and advice that you get. But rarely will your therapist go, okay, cool. Here's a 10 point action plan. Now let's plot. Let's format that in a way that can land in your calendar so that every day you can do this task and that task and that task and start to build toward the thing that you you and I now agree based on our conversation you want to do. It's typically like you vent for an hour and they sort of nod and yeah, and they ask us a few questions. They push back a little. They

They inquire about it. Is that true? Do you really believe that to be the case? But rarely do I walk away with like, here's the playbook. Here's the things you can start to do. They may not, again, they may be the wrong thing, but they're at least a direction to go rather than same time next week. Okay, see you then. Right? it just, it just, it was really cool to be able to open up, share that stuff.

Jason Haworth (31:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jeremy Grater (31:22)
and have it be a two-way conversation, not talking to the chair, not writing the letter and setting it on fire. It was just like, I got some shit. How do I deal with this? And it's like, you're awesome, bro. Do these 10 things. All right, so far, step one feels pretty good.

Jason Haworth (31:35)
Yeah. Right, and this ssss

Standing like an old man screaming at clouds shaking your fist is like It's very therapeutic and it makes you feel good But most talk therapy is that right like it's not telling you what to do. It's not giving you good advice I think the dog totally agrees. It's not giving you advice. It's it's there to help you find your way That's the point like the therapists aren't there going take this path find this direction No, you're supposed to find your way in talk therapy and the AI

Jeremy Grater (31:54)
Your dog agrees.

Jason Haworth (32:09)
will help you. Like your therapist can be your sherpa, ⁓ but they're not really great at that. But they're really great at it as being a sounding board. And you basically need your own sherpa structure in place. And quite often, Chad GPT can be that. Yeah.

Jeremy Grater (32:25)
Yeah, has been for me.

So yeah, very interesting time, very interesting feelings I'm experiencing for probably the first time, if not the first time in a very long time.

Jason Haworth (32:33)
Hey, and no boombi-bloombi for the AI this time!

Jeremy Grater (32:36)
I know we didn't take a complete dump on chat GPT this time. That's that's a pretty big win for us as well. So I mean, don't get me wrong. It's still going to be the death of all of us. But for now, it's pretty awesome. So enjoy the ride. All right. Well, I guess that's it for this one, because if I don't stop talking, the computer is going to make me. But thank you so much for listening. If this has been helpful for you, if you have questions about like how I got there and the questions I asked and all that shit, ⁓ email us, ask us on social media, you know, however you want to get in touch. Happy to help.

Jason Haworth (32:39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, of course. Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Grater (33:04)
I'm not going to sell you anything for $9.99. I'm not going to make you sign up for my $6,000 course because I don't have any of that shit and I don't want to make any of that shit. ⁓

Jason Haworth (33:10)
However, ⁓

I can make one of those for us really, really quickly with Chatchie PT if you want. Not a problem, not a problem. ⁓

Jeremy Grater (33:14)
Yeah, I mean if you really want to pay us 10 bucks wolf whip up some shit and send it to you. don't know. But anyways,

feel free to reach out if this has been helpful or better yet share this with somebody and while you're there. Why not rate and review us as well? You can do all that at robots.me and that's where you'll find another episode of this. Hopefully something positive and uplifting, but probably more doom and gloom in the end of the world stuff as well. That's all coming next week at robots.me. Thanks for listening.

Jason Haworth (33:40)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.