How to Raise Resilient Kids in an AI-Dominated World

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Are your kids making deeper, more meaningful connections to AI chatbots than they are to
their friends, family, and even you?

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As more kids choose artificial validation over real human connection, it's creating a
generation that can't handle authentic relationships or genuine feedback.

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While schools push AI integration, we're accidentally teaching kids that algorithms
understand them better than their parents, teachers, or friends do.

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So today we're gonna talk about how you can help your kids use AI as a tool without losing
their humanity.

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We'll talk about the warning signs of AI dependency, understand why current education
systems are failing our kids emotionally, and get practical strategies for building real

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world resilience in an artificial world.

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So hang out as we try to discover how to raise emotionally intelligent humans in an AI
dominated world.

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Hi there, is BroBots, the podcast formerly known as The Fit Mess, and along with Jason,
I'm Jeremy, and this is a podcast for men who want to use AI safely to manage their mental

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health.

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And our conversation today is really a continuation of one that we've had on this show for
some time now, as we've been talking more and more about how so many people are using AI

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to manage their mental health, whether they don't have access to human mental health
through therapy or counseling, things like that.

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People are turning to AI because they are finding a lot of validation.

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They're finding a lot of advice, good and bad.

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ah And it's creating a lot of opportunity for people to get help that they need.

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But it's also creating a lot of danger for people that don't really know how to navigate
it well.

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And so as I mentioned, this is sort of a continuation.

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uh I posted something on LinkedIn recently.

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I'll just read it to you.

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said, the danger of AI therapy isn't that it doesn't work.

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The danger is that it works too well.

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Perfect responses, instant availability, zero judgment.

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relationships can't compete with that level of artificial perfection.

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We're accidentally making human connection feel inadequate.

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this one got an interesting response from a guy named Scott Merkel.

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He responded saying,

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Jeremy, you nailed it.

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While everyone is arguing about cognitive offloading and brain rot in education, which is
totally off base in my opinion, this is the real issue, outsourcing all types of

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relationships to AI, girlfriends, therapy mentors.

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In a therapeutic context, one of the most nuanced things a mental health professional can
do

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is use a belief in the other person's potential to challenge them and push them beyond
their comfort zone.

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You would need an MA in counseling psychology to even know how to prompt for that level of
young people and disenfranchised folks want validation.

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Our systems and institutions have offered them that.

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and or they became jaded about their ability to navigate these systems.

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Our education system is a great example of failing so many kids and not validating their
strengths.

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The trust has eroded and they shift to AI.

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This is the problem we should all be paying attention to.

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Naturally, I looked up Scott's background to try to understand who he is and a little bit
of his context.

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And what I found was very compelling.

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He's one of the people with boots on the ground to try to help solve this problem as we
explore more about how to use AI in our real lives, but also try to hang on to our

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humanity and what it is that makes us different from machines.

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So we invited Scott to join us here on the show and have a conversation about what he's
seeing working directly with young people and where the school systems are letting them

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down and where AI is starting to fill in the gaps for better and for worse.

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so we'll talk more with Scott about that right after this.

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Our guest today is Scott Merkel.

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He's a school counselor and founder of the Impact League.

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It's a program that helps young people take awesome ideas and make them happen in the real
world to help others.

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He's also interested in how things like AI are changing school systems and how we think
about ourselves.

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And Scott, you and I connected on LinkedIn a few days ago, really in response to something
I posted, which was in response to something we talked about on our show.

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And it's how we're turning so much of our AI therapy over to AI.

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Jason, you were sharing recently that mental health is like the number one thing people
are using AI

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for these days.

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And you had some concerns about how people are doing more and more of our outsourcing of
not only therapy, but our actual human relationships.

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What are the concerns that you have about this?

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Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the world that I've been occupying for the last couple
years in education, a lot of the conversation has been about the actual production of work

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and cognitive offloading.

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there was a recent study done by some folks at MIT that gained a lot of traction.

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I'm sure you've seen it.

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And there's just so much conversation about the function of school and learning and the
cognitive offloading of that.

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For me, that's a non-issue.

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I think there's plenty of evidence out there that suggests that humans have ah some
intrinsic motivations, some natural curiosity, some natural inclination to learn.

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I don't think that stuff goes away with AI, but the bigger concern I think, and we've seen
this play out for young people, especially over the last decade, is just the loneliness

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epidemic, ah continued isolation, continued push away from

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trusted connections and relationships into more siloed spaces where they are ultimately
interacting with algorithms ah that change their thinking and really take away their

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humanity in a lot of ways.

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And so I think ah it's not even a conversation education right now, which I think it needs
to be.

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And I think that's part of the AI framework and policy stuff that gets talked about in
schools.

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in a lot of places is still not codified and doesn't exist in the way that, like, how do
we teach young people that there are some great use cases for AI and this is what that

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looks like and how do we develop some fluency around that and we don't want to outsource
our humanity.

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Like, that's the quickest way for us to, you know, a few generations from now to not be
around anymore.

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m

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Yeah, I mean, it's, kind of crazy that you mentioned the idea that kids are feeling
isolated and alone and we're supposed to be more connected than ever.

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But do you feel that the personification of the individual and social media comes down to
kind of our own mental cognitive map trying to go through and remap the value of self back

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to whatever it is this presentation layer is that we're, calling social media.

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and trying to create this interaction where human beings just feel disconnected from
themselves because they look at this thing as supposed to be reflection of who they are.

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And they kind of know it's not.

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And they're trying to live up to their own ideals that they're putting on themselves that
are a mirrored reflection of what their social group says they should be.

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But I guess my question to you is, since you're working in this space, what's the judo to
get out of it for kids?

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Because...

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I mean, I've got two daughters.

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They're 20 and 24.

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They came up right around the time of social media.

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And no one like Jeremy because his kids are quite a bit younger and they're more steeped
in it than my kids are.

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And I don't see a simple way to fix this problem from a continued use perspective.

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know China's gone through and they basically limit kids to like two hours a day of social
media.

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um

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they've had some success with, but man, I don't know, like two hours of doom scroll, it's
probably enough to taint things pretty well.

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So don't know what the right amount is, what the right portion is, and I guess I'm hoping
you have some insight.

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Yeah, I mean, I think you're a technologist, Jason, so you'd know more about the ins and
outs of the manipulation and the traps that are created psychologically for even somebody

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like myself who understands psychologically what's happening physiologically and our
nervous systems are not uh in position to be able to navigate this world.

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And of course, kids don't know any of that.

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They're just trying to make a sense of their identity, especially as they come into
adolescence.

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But I think

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where I'm trying to work in particular is uh social media is obviously a huge problem, but
think one of the, and AI will be a continuation of that I think in terms of what kids have

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struggled with in the last decade plus is this idea that they don't see themselves in the
system.

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They don't have any voice.

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They don't have any agency.

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They don't have any

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sense of co-creation or sharing a power and in that they lose some validation for who they
are and what their identity is.

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There's a lot of, of course, over optimization that's happened in education, like
optimizing for all these things.

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And so in a lot of ways we're treating kids less human to optimize for these things.

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We're not validating them and they don't have any agency in the process.

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And so it feels very transactional.

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And so they

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look for a place where they can feel some validation and comfort.

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And I think the downstream implications of that are we've just created a lot of learned
helplessness, we've created some fragility.

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ah And these are things that I think we have to look back at ourselves as adults in the
system and go, like, what are we doing?

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We have created this mousetrap that really stunts curiosity, stunts the innate desire for
individuals to learn.

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ah

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essentially being counting.

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so going back to the MIT study, the idea that AI has ruined education is a farce to me
because it's, Jason, to your point, it's a mirror back on the system.

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If the system was operating effectively, wouldn't be...

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Intrinsic motivation is uh predicated on self-determination theory.

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It's autonomy, it's competence, it's relatedness.

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If those things are happening in a meaningful way in the environment, like there's not
this desire to take the path of least resistance.

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So that path has always been there.

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I used to be calling, you know, I had a friend named Alex Engel or something.

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He was my AI, right?

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And he had all the answers to the homework.

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ah So the path of least resistance looks different now, but it doesn't change the
mechanics of like what's happening in the system itself.

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So to me, that is...

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directly where we need to be working as adults to go like we need to give up tent that we
created around what's actually important and what work we're doing and we need to bring

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kids into the process and give them some agency and treat them like human beings.

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And I think that really goes a long way.

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I'm oversimplifying it.

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It might seem a little esoteric, but I've done some work in that space and I've just seen
the

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the results from kids with no agency just like, okay, tell me what to do.

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They're just so trained into that, into that mode to then have any agency to go create and
design something that is important to them and gives them some sense that they have some

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agency and ownership over what can happen in the

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give me an example or two of the kids you've worked with that are struggling with this,
that don't have that agency, that are sort of like, what does that look like in your

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office, on the campus?

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who is that kid walking down the hall?

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What is he dealing with on a day-to-day basis?

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And what does that look like?

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Yeah, I mean, I think one of the best exercises that we can do as adults is, it's been a
long time since we all sat in a classroom.

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And so one of the things that I've tried to do every year is be a student for a day.

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And that's human design, that's empathy, right?

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And that's something that AI can't do.

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AI can, you know, ah simulate trying to be empathetic and talking about what that
experience is like, but it can't live it as close as you might.

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uh

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as a human being in kind of a surrogate way.

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So I think for kids, it's we've created, it's twofold.

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So one, we've created this system by which it's like uh becomes zero sum competitive to
get to this place, which is higher education in a lot of ways.

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And I've worked in public schools for a long time as well.

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And there's a lot of that there.

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It's like, I have to take all the AP classes.

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I have to check all the boxes.

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I have to do all the things.

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And it becomes just this exercise of stuffing the quote unquote resume.

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And what that looks like in practice for a kid is they wake up at, I don't know, 6.30, 6
a.m.

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and they get to school.

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An example of a kid I followed, we went to uh their one elective for the day, which is
like graphic design.

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And that was fun.

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And then we went to honors chemistry, took a test for 90 minutes, went to AP World
History.

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took another test for 90 minutes and then went to pre-calc.

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And by the time we're in pre-calc, you know, I'm struggling to keep my eyes open.

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I'm doodling.

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There's been no opportunity to move.

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There's been no opportunity to discuss.

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There's been no opportunity to uh get any type of feedback other than to sit there, rote
memorization and dump information or listen to a lecture.

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Graphic design aside a little bit, but those same kids then go to extracurriculars.

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They go

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to music sports, theater, scouts, whatever it may be, they're not getting home ah
sometimes until eight, nine in the evening.

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They haven't eaten.

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We've just taken these things that sound crazy.

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That's a crazy day for any one of us in terms of a work day.

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And to do that day in and day out ah in search of this thing that we've all determined is
important, I think is...

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ah

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it's really challenging.

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So when they come in, think they just feel they're just trying to survive.

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There's no sense of like, don't have, they don't even have the space to sit and like
unpack whether they should be doing this.

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Like they feel like they have to.

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And that's just the messaging that they've been given from the jump.

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So do you feel like administrators and folks that make curriculum are focusing on the
wrong KPIs?

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So I mean, they're data-driven and they're trying to elicit certain results, but they're
not taking into account the physiological, the psychological, and the emotional toll that

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driving and pushing this direction actually take on individuals.

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And as far as I can tell, we're trying to use AI to elicit a certain response out of kids
in terms of putting them through a certain curriculum criteria and trying to get them

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strive them towards a certain output or a certain outcome.

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But we don't do anything to measure mental health of kids.

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Like, we really just don't.

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Like, there's not a mental health scorecard.

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There's not a class on how to deal with shit in schools.

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And there should be.

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I mean, we don't teach kids how to balance a checkbook or how to pay rent or any of those
pieces, but we'll push them through like trig and geometry, like not really practical

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skills.

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And we'll do story problems that, you know,

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This is how fast a how long a train takes to go from somewhere in Paris to somewhere in
London.

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And there's a schedule for that.

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Like I don't really need, that's not really a skill I need, but I need some more practical
skills and we're like bypassing these practical skills and putting them in these

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situations even as while they're in school, when they're leaving school, where they're not
prepared, but we're also putting them at a disadvantage while they're in school to push

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them towards KPIs that, you know, honestly are probably not really going to be relevant
anymore because

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With the advent of AI, a lot of these jobs that we're talking about pushing them towards
that require a college degree are just not gonna be there in 10 years.

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Probably even sooner than that.

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schools are titanic in terms of their curriculum and how they actually can transform and
move things.

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It takes a long time and most of time they can't slow down before they hit an iceberg.

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It sounds very much so like we're heading towards an iceberg and like there's a lot of
people waving their hands in the air saying,

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we're gonna run into this thing as AI becomes our prevalent in the school and in schools
themselves.

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Are we just kind of hosed?

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I guess that's my real question to you.

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don't think we're hosed, but I think there's a lot of step back and reflection that needs
to happen on the part of the educators.

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There's identity there, and I don't want to treat that as if that is easy to think through
and reflect upon.

201
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But it's a change in identity from being the holder of all the knowledge and the
information and the content to a co-creator because to your point, Jason, we don't know

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where

203
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It's going to be in 10 years.

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And I think we have to relinquish some of that control.

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It's a compliance and control model right now.

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And what it has ended up doing downstream or, you know, the misaligned incentives or the
KPIs like you were talking about has just created this over pathologizing of childhood.

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And, you know, I think John Heist probably talked about that a little bit in both his
books, Coddling of the American Mind and The Anxious Generation, but

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you're taking kids that are generally fine and putting them in a place where they are no
longer fine because be it the expectations, the environment, the ask of them, the lack of

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validation, the lack of true human connection in a place that's supposed to be an
opportunity to learn and develop a lot of the skills that you mentioned, it's just not

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what's happening.

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I think that's kind of the

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we're going towards a place where, and we're already there, right?

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I think about young men in particular who are less likely to form, ah especially if
they're isolated through adolescence, like they're less likely to form these tight

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relationships in the same way.

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And I also have daughters, but in the same way that girls might, females are much better,
I think, at maintaining a network and staying in touch with them.

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But young males, you could be a young male

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orders your coffee online, picks it up, you don't have to talk to anybody, you get your
Amazon delivery, you get your groceries delivered, you interact with an AI girlfriend or

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AI therapist, and you play games all day, and you might gamble online.

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You don't have to talk to a human.

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And you can still, we've made it.

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just described my dream world.

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That was amazing.

223
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But it's dangerous.

224
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Yeah, you're right, it's dangerous.

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it's completely frictionless and you need friction for growth.

226
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And so I think we've removed, we've created all these points of quote unquote friction in
our systems, but they're the wrong points of friction where the right points of friction

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would be how do we create kids that are not fragile but anti-fragile?

228
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And the only way to do that is in

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like true relational environments where there is the messy middle.

230
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There are these opportunities for feedback in different ways.

231
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There are opportunities to let go of the control and let it play out and everyone's going
to be fine.

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Everyone's going to be safe.

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I think we've just pushed so far away from that into this other direction where it's just
an easy button now.

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Yeah, I don't need to tell either of you, you know that.

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It's just, hard to watch young people who don't have kind of that fully formed sense of
identity and maybe don't have the language to honestly even, and this is where we can go

236
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maybe into the therapy piece, but like they don't even have the language to articulate a
lot of times what they're consciously feeling and what that looks like.

237
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And they're kind of relying on an LLM who's going to probably either over-validate or send
them into, you know,

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different direction that really isn't what they needed in that moment.

239
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Yeah, it's almost like they need a default profile in their prompt engineering that takes
into account the Dunning-Kruger effect for kids who think they actually know something

240
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because the AI bot spits back something and says, you're right, it's validating.

241
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And it's really hard to attain emotional maturity when you're dealing with something that
just keeps going, yeah, you're doing great.

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Something needs to check you in the process because when something in the real world

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does and you don't know how to handle those pieces, you're going to break down.

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You know, I, I used to coach softball and I, I watch it with some of my players.

245
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Like if you came at them and criticize them in a certain way, they, they really couldn't
take it.

246
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And it was a lot different when I was a kid.

247
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And I just, this seems to be accelerating and becoming more of a divergent path and
becoming more and more difficult to have regular emotional conversations with kids.

248
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And

249
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for good reason.

250
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it's not like there's not a real reason why these things are hard.

251
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But yeah, I, sorry just to comment on that.

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You

253
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that's been my experience with working with AI is it's going to validate you and validate
you and validate you.

254
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And you're perfect.

255
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You're the perfect person to do this thing.

256
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And it's like, well, I don't know about that.

257
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I have a lot of gap.

258
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But you can see kids taking that in such a way.

259
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And that's not always good for their growth either, because they need to be given the
space to take healthy risks.

260
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Yeah, I just think the isolation and the loneliness piece of it is really the biggest
challenge.

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think that's an epidemic and I think ah we need relational friction and a lot of our
systems are dependent on human beings ultimately.

262
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And so we're just cutting that out of the process.

263
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So I mean, what I'm hearing from this conversation is really kind of opposing uh goals
really.

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mean, on one hand, we need to be teaching these kids how to really integrate AI and how to
really understand and use it as the tool that it is for any sort of future role in an

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economic system, whatever is left of our current one.

266
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But also we need to have them use it less and interact more in real life with real people
and real challenges.

267
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and maybe the answer here is,

268
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I don't know, but like, is there any agency at the education level from the teacher, from
the district, whatever agency to build that?

269
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mean, can a teacher experiment and find ways to combine the two or try new things?

270
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Or are they all really locked into a curriculum that's enforced so that they pass the test
and the school continues to get the funding that it needs?

271
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Yeah, I think that's a great question.

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I probably can't speak for every environment, but I think leadership dictates a lot of
that.

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There are some, I think, environments where teachers are given some agency to go explore
and try things.

274
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And I think those are probably the environments where you'd see the most kind of
innovative and unique solutions, of course.

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I think a lot of the, again, lot of the dialogue I've heard around it is just

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in the environments that I've been in is just this concern of losing this cognitive
offloading and this critical thinking.

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And that's not a concern for me because I don't think, I think the other things that are
playing on the system that we just were talking about are much bigger barriers to what

278
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happens going forward than this cognitive offloading piece.

279
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And I think

280
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that has existed, like I said previously, for quite some time.

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It's just very, very visible now to everybody that's watching.

282
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So I think any young person that has some, that lights up about something that they're
interested in, that gives them energy, engages them, that they feel some confidence around

283
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is going, and they feel like they have some autonomy to follow that and pursue that.

284
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That is so innate.

285
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That's how we derive purpose and meaning in life.

286
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I don't think that goes away.

287
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But I think what is happening is we are not leaning into those things and we're not
cultivating environment for those things to take place.

288
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And so I guess in a perfect world in an environmental system, you'd have, like you were
saying, Jeremy, you'd have a barbell strategy here where you have a lot of time without

289
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AI, where you have some opportunity to take some

290
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some risks in the real world, try some stuff, get some feedback, work with some different
people, mix up the ideas in such a way and the adult becomes more of a mentor and a guide

291
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than the holder of all the information because that's where learning comes from is that
place of curiosity and there's neuroscience around that too.

292
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But then there's some piece of it as well where it's like we need to have some fluency
around how to use the tool and we need to be able to sit down and go like, hey, this is a

293
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great

294
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place to use case for it.

295
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We think you should use it as a writing partner.

296
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You should use it as a sparring partner to come up with different ideas and brainstorm and
think about how you can do X, Y, or Z.

297
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But you don't want it to take the place of all these important human relationships that
are really, again, going back to just the most deeply humane things about us is our

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connection with others.

299
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I just think there's not a ton of thought about that.

300
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It's such a deep place to go to, I think.

301
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And in education, I think we're still stuck in standards and, well, kids have to go to
college and kids have to do this and kids have to do that.

302
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And oftentimes if you ask the kids, they have a completely different, and I did a project
like this in a school where the kids' perceptions of

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what was happening in the environment and the adult's perceptions were on polar opposite
ends.

304
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And I think oftentimes we don't ask the kids what their perspective is.

305
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And I think that ends up inadvertently creating these types of dynamics.

306
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Is there a positive to all the AI influence coming in in education?

307
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I let me relay a quick story.

308
00:26:51,024 --> 00:26:54,407
So I grew up uh military brat, hopped around a lot.

309
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um Had a lot of teachers, lot of different schools.

310
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And I get to fifth grade and my teacher just goes, you're going to be bored with the
curriculum.

311
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Here's the student version or the teacher book and go for it.

312
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See how far you can get.

313
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So I did that for fifth and sixth grade.

314
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And by the time I had done it, I had finished the

315
00:27:13,259 --> 00:27:15,680
sixth grade, I'd finish the seventh and eighth grade curriculum.

316
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If I had an AI, this would have been a great tool for that to kind of put those pieces
forward.

317
00:27:20,421 --> 00:27:28,283
And it's one of those pieces where I think people can thrive in certain environments and
certain conditions, but education needs to be sent towards the masses.

318
00:27:28,283 --> 00:27:40,187
And while you need to look at the different fringe levels of those pieces, I think that
there's, to me, it seems like there's value in AI being used in those kinds of ways to

319
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answer your.

320
00:27:40,887 --> 00:27:43,467
answer questions about curiosity that you're mentioning.

321
00:27:43,467 --> 00:27:44,607
like Google was great for that.

322
00:27:44,607 --> 00:27:46,127
didn't, we didn't know the answer.

323
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Everyone knows the answer.

324
00:27:46,907 --> 00:27:50,027
Now that you can Google those things, you can settle an argument right then and there.

325
00:27:50,067 --> 00:27:55,107
But then the question kind of becomes with this instant access to information, how much am
I going to hold onto it?

326
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How much do I actually remember?

327
00:27:56,267 --> 00:27:57,927
I don't need to remember phone numbers anymore.

328
00:27:57,927 --> 00:28:00,027
I don't need to remember addresses anymore.

329
00:28:00,027 --> 00:28:02,167
I don't need to know how to have directions anymore.

330
00:28:02,167 --> 00:28:05,071
I just need to know how to operate my GPS and lock my phone.

331
00:28:07,135 --> 00:28:12,858
Those things I think are great and a value add, but yeah, there's a declining value on the
other pieces.

332
00:28:12,858 --> 00:28:18,320
And if society collapses and falls apart, sure, I don't have telephones anyways, whatever.

333
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:24,123
But kind of my point being that it seems like there's actually good things in here that
could be pulled out of it.

334
00:28:24,123 --> 00:28:31,806
And that the way that we get those into the system needs to be integrated with a more
comprehensive education program that actually takes into account.

335
00:28:33,333 --> 00:28:39,909
the emotions of kids, but also the interests of kids because not every kid gives a shit
about going to college.

336
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:43,712
They don't and they shouldn't, to be honest.

337
00:28:43,712 --> 00:28:51,538
mean, my degree in social sciences does nothing for me in my current field of occupation,
but I have it.

338
00:28:51,658 --> 00:28:55,772
And my wife's a real estate agent and heard this season English slip major.

339
00:28:55,772 --> 00:28:57,563
Like these things don't really cross over.

340
00:28:57,563 --> 00:29:02,059
And yes, I think there's value in going through these process and learning.

341
00:29:02,059 --> 00:29:06,320
how to operate in the system, going to college and getting that learning experience.

342
00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:14,223
But ultimately speaking, I don't think we're teaching kids enough of how to use the
existing tools of society.

343
00:29:14,223 --> 00:29:22,235
And now we have these whole new sets of tools coming in and we're not really doing a good
job of showing them how to use it and how to regulate it.

344
00:29:22,235 --> 00:29:24,766
And we're trying to push it into everything right now.

345
00:29:25,006 --> 00:29:27,231
And it's scary.

346
00:29:27,231 --> 00:29:33,174
I mean, Microsoft just came up with this whole new thing for all the Office line products
where you are forced to use copilot.

347
00:29:33,174 --> 00:29:42,338
Like you are forced to use their AI system and they are charging you more for this, up to
your subscription cost to force you to eat more AI, which is bad for the environment and

348
00:29:42,338 --> 00:29:43,599
terrible for this and that.

349
00:29:43,599 --> 00:29:51,102
And really takes away from the individual creative process and force you to think on your
own.

350
00:29:51,742 --> 00:29:53,577
If the tools themselves are being

351
00:29:53,577 --> 00:29:59,109
shifted in that direction and moved in that direction and you're not going to get
corporations to really change those those aspects.

352
00:29:59,329 --> 00:30:08,653
Do we just need to be more adaptive in the way that we address these things, especially
with children who are probably our most vulnerable members of society?

353
00:30:10,014 --> 00:30:11,634
What's what's the trick?

354
00:30:11,634 --> 00:30:19,427
mean, I don't think I don't know if anyone's figured this out yet, but you know, where
does that balancing line come between utilizing these cool new technology pieces to try to

355
00:30:19,427 --> 00:30:23,477
derive some value out of it versus you've just

356
00:30:23,477 --> 00:30:30,137
taking this new technology piece that you're bludgeoning children over the head with and
trying to turn this into another tool that they're only going to be able to use this much

357
00:30:30,137 --> 00:30:34,223
of and ultimately it winds up being a negative for

358
00:30:36,384 --> 00:30:45,464
Yeah, I don't know if I know the answer, but I laughed when you said co-pilot because I
noticed that logging into my work email the other day and I couldn't figure out how to get

359
00:30:45,464 --> 00:30:48,904
to my email because co-pilot made it very challenging.

360
00:30:50,104 --> 00:31:04,510
I think the best kind of metaphor for this is what's been going on with SEL for the last
10 to 12 years and

361
00:31:04,510 --> 00:31:16,974
The short version of that is instead of going down to the root and figuring out some of
what I was talking about before, I think, and the environment itself and the ways that can

362
00:31:16,974 --> 00:31:25,726
change, there became this movement that, kids just need more of these SEL skills, which I,
I'm a mental health professional.

363
00:31:25,726 --> 00:31:27,097
I agree they need those skills.

364
00:31:27,097 --> 00:31:32,488
I just don't think that calling them out and siloing them as a separate thing.

365
00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:34,127
is the effective way to do that.

366
00:31:34,127 --> 00:31:37,636
And so what happened is that's how it was presented.

367
00:31:37,636 --> 00:31:39,300
It got siloed.

368
00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:42,642
And then schools said, hey, we need to do SEL.

369
00:31:42,642 --> 00:31:45,433
Every teacher is going to have a advisory.

370
00:31:45,433 --> 00:31:52,647
They're going to teach these SEL uh lessons and provide these skills.

371
00:31:52,647 --> 00:31:56,719
And the teachers were like, no, we don't want to do this.

372
00:31:56,719 --> 00:31:57,720
We're not qualified.

373
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,452
We don't know how to talk about self-awareness and social awareness.

374
00:32:02,580 --> 00:32:05,821
responsible decision making and all that stuff.

375
00:32:06,022 --> 00:32:08,813
it didn't get, it wasn't equitable and how it was rolled out.

376
00:32:08,813 --> 00:32:16,127
And so then it becomes, well, this ed tech company swoops in and they have the solution
and they go, we can do it for you.

377
00:32:16,228 --> 00:32:21,770
And the school feels some responsibility to say that they're doing it well.

378
00:32:22,331 --> 00:32:27,527
And so worse than the teachers trying to struggle through it and acknowledge that like,
hey, this is messy.

379
00:32:27,527 --> 00:32:28,834
I don't know exactly what I'm doing.

380
00:32:28,834 --> 00:32:30,085
And that's part of this whole thing.

381
00:32:30,085 --> 00:32:32,076
That's what SEL is anyways.

382
00:32:32,528 --> 00:32:37,492
We've got EdTech on the scene and they're like, yeah, just press this button and it'll
give you everything that you need.

383
00:32:37,492 --> 00:32:42,036
really kids, especially middle school and high school kids, they see right through that
stuff.

384
00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:43,637
They're not participating.

385
00:32:43,637 --> 00:32:45,979
They just want authenticity.

386
00:32:46,019 --> 00:32:55,427
And that goes, I mean, that goes back to where I started with this is like the validation
that they're looking for is because they're not, they don't feel those authentic

387
00:32:55,427 --> 00:32:55,967
connections.

388
00:32:55,967 --> 00:33:02,012
There's a lack of trust in the system in terms of like meeting me as a human being.

389
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:12,884
And so that's where I think the biggest concern is, I guess to bring this back full circle
is like the biggest concern is that the power and agency that we have to just be human

390
00:33:12,884 --> 00:33:20,928
beings in these systems, we have made ourselves more robotic and less human.

391
00:33:20,928 --> 00:33:31,612
And so the robot actually seems like the better option because it's going to show up with
validation first instead of just leaning into like

392
00:33:31,616 --> 00:33:36,881
It's just the over optimization and the hustle and the busyness.

393
00:33:36,881 --> 00:33:39,804
And even in schools, it's not that big of a deal.

394
00:33:39,804 --> 00:33:41,896
And everyone is burnt out.

395
00:33:41,896 --> 00:33:47,971
The teachers, the kids, the administrators, we don't have to be in that spot, but we are.

396
00:33:48,043 --> 00:33:49,544
And it's the name of the thing.

397
00:33:49,544 --> 00:33:51,005
It's artificial.

398
00:33:51,245 --> 00:33:54,638
Like, we're not becoming more dynamic and more organic.

399
00:33:54,638 --> 00:33:56,889
We're becoming more artificial.

400
00:33:57,290 --> 00:34:00,792
the tool's not adjusting to us as much as we're adjusting to it.

401
00:34:00,792 --> 00:34:13,021
And this seems a lot like social physics, just like regular meat space physics, where
every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and there's only so much emotional space

402
00:34:13,021 --> 00:34:14,521
kids can deal with.

403
00:34:14,883 --> 00:34:16,703
And how do you?

404
00:34:16,789 --> 00:34:19,160
Yeah, that search for authenticity is huge.

405
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,152
And also the fear of being authentic is huge.

406
00:34:23,152 --> 00:34:26,883
Like you might actually have terrible thoughts.

407
00:34:27,163 --> 00:34:35,767
And if you express them and the AI sees it and listens to it, it might amplify those
pieces or you might be shunned for it.

408
00:34:35,767 --> 00:34:46,675
mean, it feels like there's a real lack um of space for organic growth and control because
we've just

409
00:34:46,675 --> 00:34:51,317
embrace what we think is so much better, which is artificial, which by the way, it's very
inefficient.

410
00:34:51,317 --> 00:34:52,147
It's not great.

411
00:34:52,147 --> 00:34:53,217
It's not cost effective.

412
00:34:53,217 --> 00:34:56,798
There's all kinds of problems with it, but it makes things happen really, really fast.

413
00:34:57,198 --> 00:35:04,121
For some reason, we're more concerned with fast results as opposed to quality accuracy.

414
00:35:04,341 --> 00:35:11,653
And it really feels like that's being pushed into education and on teachers in an unfair
way.

415
00:35:14,419 --> 00:35:15,180
100%.

416
00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:27,692
Yeah, I think if the teacher was given some agency to, I'll talk about a little bit of a
project I did and I know an eighth grade teacher in Colorado that's doing this work as

417
00:35:27,692 --> 00:35:42,378
well, he's basically doing whatever he wants and then tying back what, and whatever he
wants is giving his agency and having them dictate within some red line.

418
00:35:42,378 --> 00:35:52,584
boundaries like where the learning goes and then the kids drive it and the kids have to
present and the kids have to write and the kids have to so they have to do all these

419
00:35:52,584 --> 00:35:52,944
things.

420
00:35:52,944 --> 00:36:01,108
There's plenty of friction there but he's letting the kids drive within what I'm calling
these red line boundaries which is don't walk out into traffic.

421
00:36:01,108 --> 00:36:10,303
Don't you know go to this place on the internet and if you don't do those things we're all
good here and I want you guys to drive it and then I'm going to be able to tie these back

422
00:36:10,463 --> 00:36:11,956
and so I kind of did a similar

423
00:36:11,956 --> 00:36:22,904
deal with some kids that I started a peer counseling program five years ago and I couldn't
control, going back to control, I couldn't control, I spent a semester training them,

424
00:36:22,904 --> 00:36:28,028
giving them credit and I couldn't control the flow of the kids that were coming in to seek
their support.

425
00:36:28,308 --> 00:36:32,651
So at one point I said, I want you guys to do a project.

426
00:36:34,213 --> 00:36:39,216
It wasn't for a grade, I just said, I'm giving you credit, it's pass fail, but you're
gonna do this project.

427
00:36:39,328 --> 00:36:42,188
what the project looks like is 100 % up to you.

428
00:36:42,188 --> 00:36:45,088
I'm going to give you some data, school level data.

429
00:36:45,088 --> 00:36:46,168
want you to look at it.

430
00:36:46,168 --> 00:36:47,168
We'll gallery walk it.

431
00:36:47,168 --> 00:36:50,948
And I want you to ask some questions and we'll go from there.

432
00:36:50,948 --> 00:36:56,048
And the first four weeks were painful because they just wanted me to tell them what to do.

433
00:36:56,048 --> 00:36:59,428
And they wanted to, it's just that that's how they were trained.

434
00:36:59,428 --> 00:37:01,628
And we trained the curiosity out of them.

435
00:37:02,628 --> 00:37:06,028
So fast forward, they, they run with it.

436
00:37:06,028 --> 00:37:07,408
They, it was a great experience.

437
00:37:07,408 --> 00:37:08,608
They publish.

438
00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:11,022
This paper they're presenting to the adults.

439
00:37:11,022 --> 00:37:14,334
They're the thought leaders We've shared power now.

440
00:37:14,334 --> 00:37:27,673
I've opened doors for them to to get in front of adults and and the I think the reaction
from adults when they see kids who have taken some agency Have gone through a thoughtful

441
00:37:27,673 --> 00:37:37,760
process have collected some data have taken all these meaningful steps It's like standing
ovation and yet we don't give them any space and then we go back to business as usual

442
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,420
and we don't give them any space to actually do that.

443
00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:46,140
And so that was kind of where my side project impact league came from.

444
00:37:46,140 --> 00:37:58,200
It's just this idea that when you give kids some space to lean into their agency,
something that they're super motivated to kind of run with, and you give them a little bit

445
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,700
of light mentorship and guidance, like they're gonna do amazing things.

446
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:06,010
We just need to get out of their way, create those red lines.

447
00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:07,861
And that's how they learn.

448
00:38:07,861 --> 00:38:19,074
I mean, the level of confidence, capacity, ah the change in 12 to 18 months, way more than
you see in a typical classroom.

449
00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:20,517
10x.

450
00:38:20,517 --> 00:38:27,791
Like if we can bring more of that into the classroom, give the teachers the agency to do
this sort of thing or build new curriculum that does this.

451
00:38:27,791 --> 00:38:33,164
think that that is one at least answer to this big puzzle.

452
00:38:33,164 --> 00:38:33,823
ah

453
00:38:33,823 --> 00:38:35,384
treat them like IEPs, right?

454
00:38:35,384 --> 00:38:40,975
Individual education programs that can be tailored to the individual that can run through
this kind of process to give them that kind of feedback.

455
00:38:40,975 --> 00:38:46,007
But you have to make space, like Scott was saying, for the emotional connection and
interactions.

456
00:38:46,007 --> 00:38:55,080
Where I think if you use these things as derivative tools that go through and look at
these KPI indicators and then also added in the emotional context piece inside of this,

457
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,171
you can actually go through and have those kinds of interactions.

458
00:38:57,171 --> 00:38:59,031
I think you'd be much better off.

459
00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:06,839
And I think we have to stop measuring things as ABCs, Ds, or ABCs, Ds and Fs, because
that's not what the criteria for output is anymore.

460
00:39:06,839 --> 00:39:11,139
I mean, if you look at the way that these systems actually work, they're 51 % positive.

461
00:39:11,139 --> 00:39:17,759
That 1 % is the effective value that they actually make and grow and generate in those
LLMs.

462
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:23,279
businesses, most successful corporations aren't 100 % successful.

463
00:39:23,279 --> 00:39:25,867
They're 51 % successful or better.

464
00:39:25,867 --> 00:39:26,730
Yeah.

465
00:39:26,869 --> 00:39:28,381
That 1 % can derive a lot.

466
00:39:28,381 --> 00:39:30,284
I think that needs to be put into education.

467
00:39:30,284 --> 00:39:32,496
And I think other countries have done this.

468
00:39:32,496 --> 00:39:35,423
Scott, it sounds like your program is definitely leaving the forefront on this.

469
00:39:35,423 --> 00:39:38,269
Where can folks learn more about it and follow your work?

470
00:39:39,422 --> 00:39:41,593
Yeah, theimpactleague.org.

471
00:39:41,653 --> 00:39:44,635
We provide micro grants to youth.

472
00:39:44,635 --> 00:39:46,576
We give them some light mentorship.

473
00:39:46,576 --> 00:39:53,470
The goal is to amplify impact and really support the next generation of change makers in
doing the type of work that I know they can do.

474
00:39:53,470 --> 00:39:55,300
They have incredible potential.

475
00:39:55,301 --> 00:39:57,522
We just need to give them some space to do that.

476
00:39:57,522 --> 00:40:01,685
So that's where you can find more information about the program.

477
00:40:01,685 --> 00:40:02,858
We'll have the links in the show notes.

478
00:40:02,858 --> 00:40:04,872
Anything you want to add here that we didn't get to?

479
00:40:07,016 --> 00:40:14,532
No, I think the only thing would be to look at the people you love and stay connected to
them.

480
00:40:14,532 --> 00:40:22,987
And I've been trying myself to go back to friendships and folks have gotten disconnected
from it, just to reconnect.

481
00:40:22,987 --> 00:40:29,062
And I think that's just going to be the most important currency going forward is that
human connection.

482
00:40:29,409 --> 00:40:30,771
Could not agree more.

483
00:40:30,946 --> 00:40:31,719
Thank you so much, Scott.

484
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:32,315
This has been great.

485
00:40:32,315 --> 00:40:33,463
I really appreciate your time.

486
00:40:33,463 --> 00:40:34,420
Thank you, Scott.

487
00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:35,345
Likewise.

488
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,101
All right, our thanks Scott.

489
00:40:40,101 --> 00:40:41,621
Boy, that's really loud.

490
00:40:43,903 --> 00:40:46,585
All right, our thanks to Scott Merkel.

491
00:40:46,585 --> 00:40:47,786
Great conversation there.

492
00:40:47,786 --> 00:40:49,857
found it validating in a lot of ways as a parent.

493
00:40:49,857 --> 00:40:57,322
There's so many things where he was talking about like the red lines and just sort of
giving kids the freedom to experiment and grow within those boundaries.

494
00:40:57,322 --> 00:41:04,576
know, essentially, within those boundaries, essentially, you know, don't run into traffic,
but you know, go play in the yard.

495
00:41:04,744 --> 00:41:10,706
These are the kinds of things I do as a parent is try to give my kids the freedom to
explore, to go out and be kids.

496
00:41:10,727 --> 00:41:15,809
It's a novel concept seemingly now, but I mean, when I was a kid, that's how we grew up.

497
00:41:15,809 --> 00:41:18,610
We came home from school, said hi to our parents if they were home.

498
00:41:18,610 --> 00:41:20,130
More often they weren't.

499
00:41:20,211 --> 00:41:22,091
And we were just out in the neighborhood until dinner.

500
00:41:22,091 --> 00:41:28,814
And if you weren't home by dinner, parents might've been concerned, but for the most part,
kids were allowed to be kids and explore.

501
00:41:28,814 --> 00:41:33,506
And there's so much emphasis on testing and getting it right and...

502
00:41:33,506 --> 00:41:37,599
being on the optimized path to make the most of every opportunity.

503
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:39,620
And I get it, like there's a lot of value in that.

504
00:41:39,620 --> 00:41:44,964
There's a lot of missed opportunity I think that does come along if you don't work towards
something.

505
00:41:44,964 --> 00:41:53,240
But if you're allowed to explore what that something is for yourself, I think it's just
gonna lead to a much more fulfilling existence for that kid that you're trying to raise in

506
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,130
the world.

507
00:41:54,531 --> 00:41:55,571
Lots of great information there.

508
00:41:55,571 --> 00:42:01,975
Lots of information from Scott that you can find at his website, theimpactleague.org that
is linked at our website, brobots.me.

509
00:42:02,462 --> 00:42:07,820
And that's where we'll be back in just a few days with another episode.

510
00:42:07,820 --> 00:42:09,382
Thanks so much for listening.